Does anyone else think...

[nlowell]

The "selling" part bothered me too

But you can buy Zuni and Navaho fetishes all over the place.

Sooooo .. the idea that a whelkie is usually given away is perfectly fine and a shaman might make some to sell on the orbital so that they can be "released into the wild" to find their homes.

Note that Ish has never sold a single one of the whelkies he's given away. 

[Victoria]

What really amazes me is that a Shaman would ever sell whelkies. I have a friend who is a Cherokee shaman, and you can't purchase his services. He does what he does because he thinks it is right.

So selling whelkies would, I feel, not be something that a Shaman would do.....UNLESS he felt so moved through a vision or image. Setting the price at 10 creds, no haggling....well....that also means something. Perhaps he wouldn't have sold to offworlders who didn't meet some hidden qualification.

Good point to bring up, SambearPoet. That struck me as odd too, but I simply thought that as soon as someone bought a whelkie instead of being given one by a Shaman, it might work differently or not work at all and be simply a carving. I mean, if a person purchases a whelkie that person is free to give the whelkie to anyone or keep them to himself. Would the purchaser know to give the right whelkie to the right needy person ? It seems to me that you would need a Shaman to get that right. So could with sale whelkies end up at the wrong people ? Seems to me like there is something wrong there.

Brings up another question... If the whelkies become just carvings in a sale, why would a Shaman even contemplate selling to begin with ? Must have a good reason for it !

[SambearPoet]

The "selling" part bothered me too

But you can buy Zuni and Navaho fetishes all over the place.

Sooooo .. the idea that a whelkie is usually given away is perfectly fine and a shaman might make some to sell on the orbital so that they can be "released into the wild" to find their homes.

Note that Ish has never sold a single one of the whelkies he's given away. 

I did pick up on that one. In addition, I also picked up on the fact that Ish was undergoing something of a Shamanic initiation by "dying" and getting "reborn" during the EMP event. The fact that his subsequent actions were a big part of what propelled him to go to the Academy was not missed on me. The fact that he was giving out Whelkies to people he thought needed them. That he was speaking for the spirit of Lois. That he was learning to tap into Dolphin Whelkie energy to surf the crowd.

Very good Mr. Lowell! You are full of win.

[Glitch_Chaos]

The whole selling Whelkie's thing is why I thought that the ones Ish bought were likely Richards prior to his awakening. He'd have a lot of carvings that weren't true Welkie's, but rather ment to be whelkie's. So they'd have a lessend power to them, the intent of the magic was there just not the the migic its self. (Does that make any kind of sence?)

[Victoria]

The whole selling Whelkie's thing is why I thought that the ones Ish bought were likely Richards prior to his awakening. He'd have a lot of carvings that weren't true Welkie's, but rather ment to be whelkie's. So they'd have a lessend power to them, the intent of the magic was there just not the the migic its self. (Does that make any kind of sence?)

I could see how Richard thought that his work has changed after the Box Fish incident and how he could see his earlier work as being inferior, but I don't know if the time frame works. Richard had his Box Fish accident in 2305 and Ish buys the whelkies in 2352. Would Richard hang on to inferior whelkies for that long ?

[Glitch_Chaos]

I could see how Richard thought that his work has changed after the Box Fish incident and how he could see his earlier work as being inferior, but I don't know if the time frame works. Richard had his Box Fish accident in 2305 and Ish buys the whelkies in 2352. Would Richard hang on to inferior whelkies for that long ?

I guess that would depend on what his (or Otto's) gift tell him. And it wouldn't have to be Richard himself selling them, any shaman may have had the vision to use these 'lesser' Whelkies. Selling them to the people who will take them to the ones in need and using the funds to solve a problem on saint cloud that due to circuim stance must be done with money

[nlowell]

I'm interested in why you think a shaman wouldn't sell his whelkie in order to release them into the wild ...

Remember that the mythos says the whelkie will find the place where it's needed.

What if the place it's needed isn't on St. Cloud?

[afelder]

I am over thinking this subject and the concept of "whelkies in the wild" because I immediately ask myself are all whelkies and shaman "good",, and if they are in the wild are some causing harm and what happens if the "wrong" person gets ahold of a whelkie and won't release it.  And then I get sidetracked into a long winded mental debate over the whole thing and realize that I am just nuts




and some day I will learn how to use punctuation without having to edit 

[nlowell]

When you do?

Teach me?

[afelder]

When you do?

Teach me?

I didn't say I would use it properly just use it:D

[Victoria]

I'm interested in why you think a shaman wouldn't sell his whelkie in order to release them into the wild ...

Remember that the mythos says the whelkie will find the place where it's needed.

What if the place it's needed isn't on St. Cloud?

Oh sure, I could see a whelkie going off-planet to reach whichever person it needs to reach, but I had a mental image of the strength of the holder over that of the whelkie.

I see that in a spiritual sense the whelkie would guide the holder/purchaser to pass it on to the right person, but what if the holder is not open to the whelkie in its spiritual sense and just sees it as a carving to give. We've encoutered this booth seller not telling the purchasers anything about it being whelkies but merely refering to it as wood carving that hold their worth in the eye of the beholder. I wonder if that would affect the guiding abilities of the whelkie ?

Of course the path of a whelkie has never been explicitly limited to the first donation and in theory the whelkie can swerve around from hand to hand until it find that right person, but I assume that most people regard a gift as something precious and personal and would not part with a carving when given. So in such cases the path of a whelkie might be barred and when sold and not giving by the carving Shaman to the needing person, I would not be surprised if a whelkie does not reach its intented person...

[Diane]

After reading this thread yesterday, then listening to this part in Half Share this morning (for the 51st time, it seems  ), I had some very interesting thoughts...

1) the Shaman wasn't really "selling" the whelkies.  He was just there in the market with them...

2) When Brill found the Heron she wanted, she couldn't buy it... Ish had to buy it for her.  That reinforces the idea that a welkie had to be given to maintain its power.

3) When Ish was selecting the whelkies, he did it randomly, just letting his hand pick up the ones he wanted.  And each time, he picked one up, the Shaman smiled and approved his choice.

4) When Pip went back to find them, the Shaman was gone... it seems Ish and Brill were the only ones who bought any.

So... I think the Shaman knew Pip would make sure those whelkies got to the people who needed them... And that was why Pip's whelkie had such a dark purple heart!

Diane

[Diane]

btw... it feels quite odd to be dissecting motives in a book, and the meaning behind the prose with the author "listening" in!

In my English courses, I always wondered if the author really meant all the things the "experts" attributed to their works.

So, Prof. Lowell, what is your opinion on the dissection of your great literary works?

[Victoria]

After reading this thread yesterday, then listening to this part in Half Share this morning (for the 51st time, it seems  ), I had some very interesting thoughts...

1) the Shaman wasn't really "selling" the whelkies.  He was just there in the market with them...

2) When Brill found the Heron she wanted, she couldn't buy it... Ish had to buy it for her.  That reinforces the idea that a welkie had to be given to maintain its power.

3) When Ish was selecting the whelkies, he did it randomly, just letting his hand pick up the ones he wanted.  And each time, he picked one up, the Shaman smiled and approved his choice.

4) When Pip went back to find them, the Shaman was gone... it seems Ish and Brill were the only ones who bought any.

So... I think the Shaman knew Pip would make sure those whelkies got to the people who needed them... And that was why Pip's whelkie had such a dark purple heart!

Diane

Diane -

Excellent summary. I had gone over the summary in my head too, but it's good to see it written here.

I do agree that the Shaman did not advertise his whelkies, but he did sell them. In the end he accepted money for them and did not give them freely without monetary reward to any passing needing or facilitating person. If a whelkie would find its owner by itself, the Shaman could just have occupied the stand and trust that the people that came and take whelkies away would be facilitators in the path of the whelkie.

Your second point is what made me think that 'bought' and not given whelkies could be less significant. Of course this would maybe only hold for whelkies bought for ownership and not whelkies bought as gifts. I don't know... confusing !

I do certainly think that Ish has a stronger connection to the Shaman rites than some other people in the books. As you say in your last comment Ish' (that's who you meant I figure, not Pip) whelkie is a strong one to go with a strong person. But to say that Brill and Ish were the only ones buying is too much of an uncertainty to support in my opinion. There is too much unaccounted time that we have no clue about.

btw... it feels quite odd to be dissecting motives in a book, and the meaning behind the prose with the author "listening" in!

In my English courses, I always wondered if the author really meant all the things the "experts" attributed to their works.

So, Prof. Lowell, what is your opinion on the dissection of your great literary works?

I expressed this exact sentiment on the website when the idea of founding a forum was coined. Still a bit weird to express my own throughts and risk having them butchered by the Board Boss and Book Boss himself. Be gentle, Nate !

[afelder]

btw... it feels quite odd to be dissecting motives in a book, and the meaning behind the prose with the author "listening" in!

In my English courses, I always wondered if the author really meant all the things the "experts" attributed to their works.

So, Prof. Lowell, what is your opinion on the dissection of your great literary works?

I expressed this exact sentiment on the website when the idea of founding a forum was coined. Still a bit weird to express my own throughts and risk having them butchered by the Board Boss and Book Boss himself. Be gentle, Nate !

But isn't that the entire point of this forum for us to share wjat we like and don't about the books (not that I can think of much of the second) to help make the future ones even better