Does anyone else think...

[nlowell]

I'm finding this whole discussion fascinating.

Some of the things you've hit on, I built on purpose. Some of the stuff -- nope -- never thought of it.

The buying of the whelkies was carefully staged, tho. Whenever there's an invocation of magical power, there's always a cost for magic. For the shaman, the cost is the carving, but if we are to have some idea of "conservation of magic" - each step needs to have a contribution of cost. Bril paid her cost in credit, but the magic added was her regard for Ishmael in gifting him. Don't overlook the power of love as magical element.

Somebody on one of the threads or comments said something like they liked the idea that there might be magic in this world but that it was hard to tell if it was magic or just a subtle logic.

I got a little over the edge into madness in South Coast. Those are real shamanistic and pagan traditions there, mostly.

And.. yes, I'm Prof Lowell (more accurately Dr. Lowell) but you can call me Nate.

[Victoria]

But isn't that the entire point of this forum for us to share what we like and don't about the books (not that I can think of much of the second) to help make the future ones even better

Yes, true I think, but also to be able to discuss it with each other and express and read other interpretations outside the authors realm. So in that we can see other points of view and assess vantages that we had never even thought about ourselves. For instance Kevin's analysis on Half Share about it being the Peter Pan book, I had the same reaction as you did afelder. I'm pretty sure that Nate will have never said things like that so bluntly, and the reverse, I think a great deal of him that he can stay on the sidelines and not say; 'Well, actually...' in the middle of a discussion.

Sorry to talk about you, Nate, like your not in the room, 'cause you virtually are of course.  And don't get me wrong, I love this board ! I'll cope and get used to it and find it very normal in a while !

[Victoria]

I got a little over the edge into madness in South Coast. Those are real shamanistic and pagan traditions there, mostly.

I do not know the in and outs of Shamanism, but am well familiar with Pagan tradition and I think that is also why this topic is so dear to me.

I compare the receiving of a whelkie with the finding of a wish stone. Certain traditions in witchcraft have the tradition that a person cannot become an Elder until their wish stone has found them. In some rites it is necessary to have a stone with a whole that has been created by nature, usually hydrodynamics. And it is believed that the finding of the wish stone is confirmation that one is ready for responsibility. The stone finds the Elder, the whelkie finds the needy. Same analogy. And maybe that analogy reminded me of the idea of buying a wish stone (which is unacceptable in traditional opinion of course) and it made my hair stand up.

The buying of the whelkies was carefully staged, tho. Whenever there's an invocation of magical power, there's always a cost for magic. For the shaman, the cost is the carving, but if we are to have some idea of "conservation of magic" - each step needs to have a contribution of cost. Bril paid her cost in credit, but the magic added was her regard for Ishmael in gifting him. Don't overlook the power of love as magical element.

My natural instinct was that love could suffice as the only magical element here. The cost contribution of both Brill and Ish is also giving in love. Once love is bestowed it usually costs the giver in return as there are always heartbreaks small and large, even in friendship. To me there is enough cost there in the fact that Ish and Brill cannot be together the way they want to. (Or am I being too much of a 'shipper here ?)

[Diane]

Thanks for pointing out the typo for me... Yes, I meant Ish's whelkie...

Anyways, as far as Ish and Brill buying the whelkies... I think the Shaman knew those whelkies had to go off St Cloud, and he couldn't get them there. (Like how Richard knew he had to go on the platform in South Coast)  I think he also knew the only way Ish would be interested was if he had to buy them.  Ish was off the ship just the one day.  He got to Ish the only way he could.

In any religion, you cannot convince using logic.  You can only show the way, and let the person choose for him (or her) self.

Diane

[Glitch_Chaos]

And.. yes, I'm Prof Lowell (more accurately Dr. Lowell) but you can call me Nate.

Okay I gotta say it... Ahhh What's up Doc?  (SFX: Carrot crunch) 

[nlowell]

*head desk*

[Glitch_Chaos]

*head desk*

I hope that was you having MY head hit the desk, because yours is to valuable 

[Zeus Legion]

As far as how a whelkie gets to the person who needs it, I always assumed synchronicity would have come into play. A confluence of unrelated events all relying entirely on probability (which would be propelled in the needed direction by their magic).

One person might buy a whelkie on one world, take it with them and give it to the person who needs it or, in the case of synchronicity, perhaps they give it to someone it isn't destined for and that person (through a series of unrelated events) gets bumped at just the right time in just the right place so that the whelkie falls out of their pocket and is found by the person it was always meant for.

I might point out that the probability of Ish's mother dying when she did, him joining the Lois when he did, him being the person he was and making the friends and lovers that he did and him being on that planet and in that market that one day looking for what he was looking for, well, that all sounds like a bunch of unrelated events leading to a specific destination (time and place).

[Laith]

Could it be ??!? Could it be Richard ? He would have to be very old though... But I guess it might work, if he's had Otto young he might be in his 30s in 2305 and that would make him in his 80s in Ish's era. Might work !

Also remember that in this universe people live well past the century mark so as the one conversation about old spacers went 80 wouldn't be old

[Laith]

As far as how a whelkie gets to the person who needs it, I always assumed synchronicity would have come into play. A confluence of unrelated events all relying entirely on probability (which would be propelled in the needed direction by their magic).

Personally I feel that many "magical" things in the world rely very heavily on synchronicity. This is a very good point zeuslgn.

Applying logic to magic is always a bit problematic anyway...

[Zeus Legion]

Well, there's nothing to say that the whelkies can't be imbued with a natural sort of "psychic probability shifting" property that one could consider magic.

In Quantum Mechanics, it has been observed that certain particles that have two options (i.e. going left or going right) actually do both at the same time when we're not looking at them and only make their final "choice" (left or right) when we observe them. That's downright weird if not magical. From what I've read elsewhere, both probabilities occur. We go along with one of them (i.e. it goes left) while a parallel universe spins off based on the other probability (where it went right).

The whelkies would simply carry a property that affects the probability field around objects and events in favor of the bearer, moreso with those who were the most in tune with it (i.e. whom it was meant for).

[Laith]

In Quantum Mechanics, it has been observed that certain particles that have two options (i.e. going left or going right) actually do both at the same time when we're not looking at them and only make their final "choice" (left or right) when we observe them. That's downright weird if not magical. From what I've read elsewhere, both probabilities occur. We go along with one of them (i.e. it goes left) while a parallel universe spins off based on the other probability (where it went right).

Just so long as we don't start playing with the Cat.

[Zeus Legion]

Playing with *that* cat would certainly be spooky action at a distance. 

[Laith]

Playing with *that* cat would certainly be spooky action at a distance. 

Dr. Schrodinger I presume 

[afelder]

Oh no not quantum mechanics puns