**SPOILER WARNING** Owner's Share discussion

[Jamming]

What I was trying to say is that if people are prepared to do evil to accomplish a goal, if you stand in the way they will not stop for you, regardless of what your outlook is. The quotes I remember from my life is:

"Good character is not formed in a week or a month. It is created little by little, day by day. Protracted and patient effort is needed to develop good character."

It was that quote or

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." or "Never try to outstubborn a cat."

One of those three, I haven't gotten very much sleep since yesterday and I confuse easily when I do get sleep.

My point?  Oh yeah, My point!  Is that this Article 37 is a test of character, can the protagonist retain his good character in face of Article 37.  Will all that protracted and patient effort have been for nothing because of Article 37, or will stubborness win by enduring the day? Will Article 37 be another successful test of character or the tipping point to poor character.

[JaneAtPlay]

I tend to re-listen to an ep. a couple of times to catch everything, but I admit, this time I needed to listen to 27 and 28 together.  Couldn't do 28 alone.  Bravo, Nate.  Masterfully done.   

Episode 28 highlights the painful and powerful intimacy of first person POV.  It may also explain why some folks are put off (and possibly angry) at what may feel like a last minute blast of realism. 

We see through Ish's eyes. His discovery of and reactions to the 'newsies' indicates to me that he's been isolated from the grittier reality of the world beyond the docks and deep dark.  He's unaware of 'The Wander', suggesting he doesn't follow the more general legitimate news either, although everyone around him - spacer and land rat alike seems to be familiar with at least one, if not both.

Ish isn't dumb, but he's traveling new territory and his 'situational awareness' doesn't extend far enough.  He recognizes the possibility of greater danger. He raises questions about Jarvis' motives and methods.  Unfortunately, the elephants are zipped up in sheep's clothing.   

Ish has experienced how low people will stoop in the pursuit of credits and personal gain.  The events on the Tinker were overt, but Plunkett, who comes off as a decent guy (to me), chose to overload the Sarcastic Voice in favor of a few more fares, assuming the risks were small, if acknowledging the risks at all.  Ish makes that choice himself, sailing from Greenfields with Chief Bailey.  His rationalization is based on reputation.  Honoring the contracts, not breaking his 'promise to deliver' passengers and freight, boils down to credits, too.           

Someone made a comment that [Article 37] is how Superheros get their start. Ish as benevolent vigilante has its appeal, but unlikely to me.  He could just sell the ship and start fresh - as a spacer or otherwise.  If he still wants to "make a life - out there" on the Iris, I expect the shine is off the apple of commercial trade, but it's what he knows.  The reality is that he has investors and dividends to pay in 5 years.  The hurdle is even higher if he wants to buy back those shares.

It will be interesting to see how Nate finds a route towards balance between guilt and obligation for our damaged hero.  I expect the hollow man from the end of Captain's Share is now filled with burning fire.

   

[mimccart]

It sounds very strange to say this, but I'm reading through these comments, I think we're all in mourning.
Some of us are still in denial, some of us have moved on to anger, and a few of us are trying to bargain with the author!

I've been reading through the two main discussion areas--here and at Podiobooks--and I think you nailed it.  Grief.  I have seen every kind of classic grieving behavior with a few bordering on irrational.  I believe a number of people need to have their parents remind them that "it's all just pretend" and relax.  I'm not belittling anyone's feelings, but some of the reactions are not well anchored in reality.

Still... ...I blame Nate for everything.  Not for the obvious reason that he's the author, either.  I blame him because for the first time he is so far off his normal production quota that people are forced to remain in their grief.  They are not given a TIMELY opportunity to see how the story and the characters move on and deal.  There is no chicken soup for the soul here.  "No soup for you!"  At least until tonight, according to his post.

So, how evil and demented am I that I'm enjoying watching people lose it over this episode?  Maybe I need to grow a handlebar mustache so I can twirl the end.

[annoyance]

What I was trying to say is that if people are prepared to do evil to accomplish a goal, if you stand in the way they will not stop for you, regardless of what your outlook is. The quotes I remember from my life is:

"Good character is not formed in a week or a month. It is created little by little, day by day. Protracted and patient effort is needed to develop good character."

It was that quote or

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." or "Never try to outstubborn a cat."

One of those three, I haven't gotten very much sleep since yesterday and I confuse easily when I do get sleep.

My point?  Oh yeah, My point!  Is that this Article 37 is a test of character, can the protagonist retain his good character in face of Article 37.  Will all that protracted and patient effort have been for nothing because of Article 37, or will stubborness win by enduring the day? Will Article 37 be another successful test of character or the tipping point to poor character.

Mr. Jamming,  Ish is as close to a robot complete with a prime directve, as i have ever seen.  He only gets mildly upset when one of his crew is sexually assaulted by a passenger, that he had reservations about taking on. in the first place.  At the same time giving him the knowledge that she's his bodyguard she's armed don't mess with her.   Which led directly to the attack on Ms. Maitln(which led to a lawsuit.  which led to... and....and...Article 37).  This is IMO a character flaw.  Had he been more proactive... maybe none of this Article 37 stuff would have been necessary. 

[Jamming]

Mr. Jamming,  Ish is as close to a robot complete with a prime directve, as i have ever seen.  He only gets mildly upset when one of his crew is sexually assaulted by a passenger, that he had reservations about taking on. in the first place.  At the same time giving him the knowledge that she's his bodyguard she's armed don't mess with her.   Which led directly to the attack on Ms. Maitln(which led to a lawsuit.  which led to... and....and...Article 37).  This is IMO a character flaw.  Had he been more proactive... maybe none of this Article 37 stuff would have been necessary. 

When I hear Mr. Jamming, I think of my father, even though that ain't his name.

When I came back from Government Service outside of CONUS, I went for Seminary which I lasted two years in my three year graduate program. Wasn't cut of the right cloth, too sexy for my shirt. I had an old Bishop who was 95 to 96 and still taught, there.  He told me good character is not perfect character, that stuck with me.  People are falliable and imperfect, but it is how they fail and recover is more important than if they fail in the first place.

[annoyance]

When I came back from Government Service outside of CONUS, I went for Seminary which I lasted two years in my three year graduate program. Wasn't cut of the right cloth, too sexy for my shirt.

Too bad maybe you could have been one of those Vatican Assassins we hear about.

I had an old Bishop who was 95 to 96 and still taught, there.  He told me good character is not perfect character, that stuck with me.  People are falliable and imperfect, but it is how they fail and recover is more important than if they fail in the first place.

Okay!  He's a gosh-darned robot  but he's human.   I hope he sees what's happened and makes the appropriate course corrections.

[Dav1d]

@Jamming

Curious did he teach also that one did not need to learn?  In every book has not Ish been exposed to one simple fact, that when men worship money that bad things happen? That greed kills?

***************************

I've said it before the Ish of this book is very unlike the Ish, I at least have come to know in the previous books. From simple things like the refusal to address the issue with Gramps, the allowing it  go unaddressed, after he became aware of it. The decision to return, with an engineer he could not trust, the decision to role the dice and gamble his life, his crew's life, and his passengers life, on the hope that he could make it? His choice NOT to file charges against Gramps, and the direct cost that he paid for that choice. He even chose to reward Gramps by paying him two weeks severance pay, when he didn't need to!

Has Ish been a man choosing to do what he believes is right, or has he simply lusted after riches, and fame? It is in my opinion one thing to choose to gamble with your own life, it is something very different to choose to gamble with another's life, and not ask their permission, let alone inform them of your decision!

We have an hour or so of story telling time left, with the snap of a finger will we jump through time? Will a significant period of time pass, and the story just continue, for a time? Or will we deal with what has happen? I'm left unsatisfied either way, wanting to know more. Needing to see the piper paid.....

 

[ratz]

We have an hour or so of story telling time left, with the snap of a finger will we jump through time? Will a significant period of time pass, and the story just continue, for a time? Or will we deal with what has happen? I'm left unsatisfied either way, wanting to know more. Needing to see the piper paid.....

that does seem to be the inherent problem with 1st person narratives. We get into the characters head for insight, but when things go all article 37 on us, you find that some of the now major players are undeveloped characters, especially if: (1) the main character failed to pay attention to them, and (2) it's truly a surprise to the lead character then, it is also a surprise to the audience and harder to accept because traditional narrative gives you a birds eye view or a weak author will have other characters suggest it to the lead to build credibility.  Hence it's hard to pull off well. As for the followup, if you follow the post article 37 implications then you are stuck in the head of someone coping with all the sides and issues of article 37, and that is half a book in itself.  It will be interesting to see how this all ties up and how well it works.

In the end I think the story would be stronger if all the players in the events leading up to article 37 had had equal character development and screen time, then the punch would have been all the more powerful..  In the end Owners sha feels as it should really have been two books with the same pacing as quarter share and half share which really were more like one longer book when taken together. 

This in not to criticize the books, I could never write 6 paragraphs this well, it's just not as satifying as the early books as it feels rushed and that may just be the pace of Nate's life bleeding through as he make the leap to full time writer. If that is the price to get him writing full-time then that is a price we can accept... And authors do have the right to tire of telling lenghty stories in the Same universe..

[Jamming]

Ish knew money can cause pain, but it is not always so, money can relieve pain too.  Ishmael asks Ms. Malone about what is Jarvis capable of?  No one can see into the soul of someone else from a third person view and we were not getting a first person view from Jarvis. When Pip got mugged in QS, Ishmael didn't give up on making money, he tried to figure out how to do it better and safely.  Ish seems to be about people first and making a living is part of putting the person first.  Ishmael is not Sherlock Holmes, he needs facts and experience to make good decisions from and those are two things he is earning from Article 37 at a expensive level of tuition.

[annoyance]

@Dav1d 

If you believe that commerce is evil.  Noone will be able to convince you otherwise.  Ish always puts the good of the crew first.  He is the captain and makes the decisions.  Right or wrong. 

[Jamming]

...and then there were none.

In Accordance with CPJCT Article 37, I will not relate the story of the last episodes referring all inquiries to the Captain.  I will say that the explanation of your future plans for the Golden Age make much more sense than how you communicated them before.  It is not really the content as much but the cogent context in the way it was related.  Thanks for the ride, Captain.  I think I will ponder the last part of my own book, disperse the Mob and collect the pitchforks, and generally review what happened this last month.

[Laith]

Thank you captain for the voyage.

I look forward to the lifting of Article 37 and the discussions I'm sure will follow.

If you end up deciding to do that chat let me know, I'd like to at least lurk... based on my post count its obvious I'm such a quiet, soft spoken fellow...

[surfsailor]

I am left with not sadness really.  More like a sense of peace, a reasonable ending.  It has been interesting to read all the comments on the various characters and their debatable flaws.  I too noticed what seemed like inconsistencies in Ishmael's character/actions.  One person already noted that as owner/captain Ish seemed less...sure footed through out most of the last book.  I agree, though second guessing the author seems pointless activity.   

 

[Polemicturtle]

That was a heck of a ride Sar. Thanks

 

[joshg]

Wow.

Not sure what else to say.

I feel like I've been punched in the gut. I feel like I've lost all sense of balance and my world and expectations are spinning around me.

At the same time I feel at peace. I feel like the world is as it should be, even though everything looks subtly wrong.

It's been an unforgettable ride. Thanks for letting us all book passage.