**SPOILER WARNING** Owner's Share discussion

[Laith]

That explains why I identify so strongly with this series, and why I felt so crushed when I found out how it ends. I think I'm not the only one. Many people feel as lost as Ishmael does, and some of them feel badly betrayed.

To be honest at I felt that by the end despite the events and details surrounding the invocation of Article 37 the tone was fairly upbeat and I don't think that Ishmael was feeling lost any further at that point. for reasons I can go into once the Article is lifted.

The real message, after all, is not that people get what they deserve. They get what they work for, despite all the things in their life that they can't control.      

I think I can somewhat agree with this.

[Hade]

@Laith: I think you're right about him not feeling so lost anymore -- as I said earlier, the last episode has already put him on the path to recovery. That doesn't mean he is fully recovered. And since I was talking about my own reasons for feeling utterly lost after episode 28, I guess I put a little more emphasis on that than the real ending warrants.

The good news is that the actual ending seems to prove that I was right about why this turn of events does fit with the rest of the series. In a sense, it's a reboot. Ish now gets to build his life again, but this time, he'll have the benefit of having lived through something similar once before, as well as the financial resources not to be forced upon a path that he didn't really choose.    

[ratz]

Gah. I'd like to talk to you, at length and in depth, about character development, ratz. Article 37 is standing in my way.    

Aye Aye on that one; There will be time just save the thoughts.  Part of all this is the performance Art piece of the puzzle. Being an audio book; this is a performance we are listening too; and that leads to a higher need for a tight story; through no fault of the author. If I'm reading I can go slower; fill in the blanks; contemplate the meaning of the words. Nate picks his words carefully. I mean Ephemeral for the ship in the opening scene? I knew where we were wear going from the beginning, that line was up there with "The man in black fled across the desert and the guy slinger followed."...Frankly I was dreading the end from the get go; cause Nate basically told us, don't get use to any of this cause it's gonna be very shortlived.....  Tragic chapters of life tend to be short in duration and long on impact.

At the pace of the performance I know I miss things the 1st time; the unspoken details mean more and have more impact when reading. I suspect the beta readers don't notice anything of what bothered me; because they are reading it; not listening to it. "Screen Time" as it is in a performance art is priceless and you can't waste it on non essentials or tangents; you have to stay focused and on target that was separates a great screen play from one that is Meeh. It really says how well the story is written that the performance comes across so strong; My wife loves the stories but she wouldn't read the books, she doesn't like reading first person novels; but she does really enjoy the audio form. We buy the books mostly to support the audio    The key I have to remember is that these are novels first, I'm unsure how much restructuring Nate's doing for the spoken form....

I have to believe there is more for Ish to come, offstage. He needs to growup a lot; if [Article 37] was what could have been; then I'm surprised that after almost two years that the Welkies didn't appear until what was basically an epilogue,  Those are the thing that are shared and form foundations of relationships that last not things you find out later.  The characters don't comment to his face about how "dense" he is in the interpersonal space because Nate needed filler text, they do it because that's Ish's, Ahab issue, his blind spot if you will. Ish had his flings, the marriage that he was "expected to have" by his internal reasoning, and now lost his [article 37]; seems to me he's finally ready to enter the mature part of his life and find meaning in it all. I for one hope he does and that we get to check in on him now and then and see how he's doing.


---glad I'm not a writer I had to edit this thing 5 times to make it readable---

[JaneAtPlay]

Well, however I felt about the use of "[article 37]" before, I'm in favor of it now.  Just emerged from a 24 hour internet access issue and downloading 29 and 30 now.  Kind of apprehensive about re-entering a Share-free world after these are done, but off to listen anyway.

[Magnus]

I had a better feel for it the second time I listened to it and will no doubt have a better one after the third and fourth time but for now it is a good story and I enjoyed it.

[Jamming]

I had a better feel for it the second time I listened to it and will no doubt have a better one after the third and fourth time but for now it is a good story and I enjoyed it.

A good story, yes.  Where there use to be a great one. 

[Laith]

I had a better feel for it the second time I listened to it and will no doubt have a better one after the third and fourth time but for now it is a good story and I enjoyed it.

A good story, yes.  Where there use to be a great one. 

Yeah, I respectfully disagree. Seeing the full arc of the story, to my mind is a great one.

[Jamming]

I had a better feel for it the second time I listened to it and will no doubt have a better one after the third and fourth time but for now it is a good story and I enjoyed it.

A good story, yes.  Where there use to be a great one. 

Yeah, I respectfully disagree. Seeing the full arc of the story, to my mind is a great one.

Suck up 

[JaneAtPlay]

Posted on: Today at 04:35:57 PMPosted by: Laith  
Insert Quote
Quote from: Jamming on Today at 04:11:38 PM
Quote from: Magnus on Today at 03:21:18 PM
I had a better feel for it the second time I listened to it and will no doubt have a better one after the third and fourth time but for now it is a good story and I enjoyed it.

A good story, yes.  Where there use to be a great one.  

Yeah, I respectfully disagree. Seeing the full arc of the story, to my mind is a great one.

Laith, I'm with you.   Both, OS alone and stepping back to view the series as a whole, I still see great story.  

Turns out I've eaten quite a bit of red herring and I have a few nit-picky questions where I'm saying 'huh?', but I can't say much else, yet.  Trying to redact my thoughts with [acticle37] ends up with the same content value as actors muttering "rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb" during party scenes.  

::sigh::  I may need to keep actual notes, while I wait for the gag order to be lifted.  I'll listen again, but I'll never get that same *pow* as from the first time.

[Jamming]

I'll listen again, but I'll never get that same *pow* as from the first time.

That and the expectations from the suspense of build up from the waiting for the episodes, will be why the effect will never be the same.  If I read it now I would not get the same feeling of connectedness that I had with Ishmael, because its last three chapters are depressing, not uplifting. I don't need or want to feel that way. Every other book has ended with an uplifting experience except this one, it ends with apathy and depression.

If I wanted true to life depression I would read about Japanese Cannibalism of Allied Prisoners in New Guinea, the Death Camps in Poland, or watch Muslim Beheading of Americans on videos.  I don't read fiction to be traumatized or depressed, I can get that from reality or my own experiences. The death of Ishmael's mother occurs off stage about some fictional character I had not bonded with. Article 37 is to in my face and not what I read fiction for.  I do not believe it was the destined, it was from the start of book six in hindsight.

Book Six troubles me and is not congruent with the earlier five. If you don't see that, further conversation about this is useless.

[JaneAtPlay]

Article 37 does not happen instantaneously, yes it could be tweaked to but it exists so far out of the realm of normal probability of outcomes would happen in such an encounter.  

 He now is a merchant prince or a tragic hero, sorry it ended that way.

You know we fall at different places on the reaction spectrum of both OS in general and Article37 in specific, but 2 things caught me in specific.

Besides just wishing to know, I truly feel the the story needs a few more crumbs of info on what motivated the surviving [Article 37] instigator to act so much more extremely than someone stated he was supposed to.  Feels like something more than 'it got out of hand' and either I missed it entirely or its just missing.  I have no skill at making sense while redacting, so I can't add any more to this one, yet. 

You're right - he has the potential to be simply a merchant prince and while he lectures the crew of the Agamemnon about his goal of 'making money' - the man is financially comfortable before OS and hasn't been a conspicuous consumer so far.  We'll have to wait and see what Nate cooks up.   During OS, the irony is that he's managed to do this - without ever receiving a single credit from the prize.       

Tragic hero?  Maybe.  But maybe OS is more Social Drama than Greek Tragedy.  Our hero would be a victim of circumstances and society, rather than his own mistakes.  OS extends off the docks into corporate life and we see those 'invisible hands' actually reached pretty far back into Ish's history and he's manipulated at every turn, in OS.  He's got most of the componants of a tragic hero, but I still find his future hopeful. 

Doomed?  I never felt it, even with his sixth sense about when things seem to be going too well.  Could just be 'sludge happens', too.   
Has he suffered?  Absolutely.
Been pitied?  Probably often.  Mom died, he was on the verge of being beached on the Lois, assigned the Agamemnon.  Plus we see him perceive it in OS
Feared?  Maybe not in the physical sense, but he has been called "dangerous" more than once.
Fatal Flaw?  Flaws, yes.  Fatal?  Again. Maybe not.  We'll have to see, when we meet him again.  Classicly, the fatal flaw is hubris - and Ish is one of the least prideful characters you can find.  'I'm just a man', 'Just a captain'. 
Did his actions cause [Article37]?  He thinks about what he could have differently and clearly hasn't worked through self-blame, but the jury's not in.  A butterfly flaps its wings, and all. 

Bottom line, I like a little melodrama.  I like stories to tug at my emotions.  But I can see your reasons for disappointment.       

[surfsailor]

@Jane - I like the way you said that.  The story is as yet unfinished and difficult to judge because of that.  While we may dislike or even hate that we all must wait to see where it all leads...  This will not be the first time any of us has had to wait years for the next book to come out.  The fact that so many people have been effected by this story speaks volumes.

Part of my agrees with Jamming that the last several chapters were at best a dash of cold water to the face following a pleasant steam.     But I thoroughly enjoyed the experience as a whole.

[Jamming]

I don't mind authors playing with my emotions, but the manipulation and assault on them are as anguishing as a real trauma.  I Effing cried, the only other time that I do come close to that is on the anniversary of some Trauma that happened to me.  Maybe I became to involved in the story and some think that is an example of good writing.  I still feel like I was betrayed, I will probably read and listen to his work again, but never will I allow myself to think of this as a safe place. He has diminished my desire for new books, the experience of the past books I read, my regard for his storytelling, and my trust.  Of the four the lost of my trust will probably never be re-earned as there will never be a reason too.  I think he shot himself in the foot with that issue and why others left without comment.  He asked for me to be trustworthy about Article 37 and I will continue until relieved of that, trust betrayed will not be returned.  I will not at this time trust him again.  From "Trust Lois" to "Trust No One" again, in one easy step.

[annoyance]

I don't mind authors playing with my emotions, but the manipulation and assault on them are as anguishing as a real trauma.  I Effing cried, the only other time that I do come close to that is on the anniversary of some Trauma that happened to me.  Maybe I became to involved in the story and some think that is an example of good writing.  I still feel like I was betrayed, I will probably read and listen to his work again, but never will I allow myself to think of this as a safe place. He has diminished my desire for new books, the experience of the past books I read, my regard for his storytelling, and my trust.  Of the four the lost of my trust will probably never be re-earned as there will never be a reason too.  I think he shot himself in the foot with that issue and why others left without comment.  He asked for me to be trustworthy about Article 37 and I will continue until relieved of that, trust betrayed will not be returned.  I will not at this time trust him again.  From "Trust Lois" to "Trust No One" again, in one easy step.

I haven't cried, at least not yet. I think I'm still in shock. and to see how distraught you are might cause me to cry all by itself.   I see where you're coming from.  Authors are.... emotion manipulators.  But, this isn't 1. the Ish we ever knew existed and 2.  a good send off for our hero.  I'm prohibited by article 37 to say exactly what i feel.  Let's just say, I feel numb.  I can't say that I entirely blame Nate, for my lack of sleep, hurt feelings and general despondency.  It could be that even in all the unforeseen circumstances Ish has faced previously, the wind has always been at his back.   This time, not so much.  And I don't think anyone but Ish bought into the "trust Lois" mantra... maybe Sarah, maybe not. I ramble,, not smart like the rest of you.

[internalogic]

I don't mind authors playing with my emotions, but the manipulation and assault on them are as anguishing as a real trauma.  I Effing cried, the only other time that I do come close to that is on the anniversary of some Trauma that happened to me.  Maybe I became to involved in the story and some think that is an example of good writing.  I still feel like I was betrayed, I will probably read and listen to his work again, but never will I allow myself to think of this as a safe place. He has diminished my desire for new books, the experience of the past books I read, my regard for his storytelling, and my trust.  Of the four the lost of my trust will probably never be re-earned as there will never be a reason too.  I think he shot himself in the foot with that issue and why others left without comment.  He asked for me to be trustworthy about Article 37 and I will continue until relieved of that, trust betrayed will not be returned.  I will not at this time trust him again.  From "Trust Lois" to "Trust No One" again, in one easy step.

I felt sad too but I completely disagree with the above reaction to that sadness.  And one thing this series has not ever been is manipulative.  Human events are related in human time and at human scale.  And there's always this surrounding context of quiet and of the Deep Dark.  Melodrama it's not.  Unfortunately in life sad things sometimes happen.  This series has always been about Character, in both senses of the term.  One, character development and intimacy with people's personal changes and experiences, and 2) the degree of one's moral fiber and the sense of personality and integrity that one is able to bring to life situations, great and small.

I feel that the story's primary fidelity was to character, and that this was managed quite coherently.  It was an internally driven story.  Because of that, the plot was freed up to go wherever it would. 

The question was not whether Article 37 happened.  It was how people dealt with it, how they reacted to it, what they did after it happened.  If you think about it, the series was structured very elegantly and rather symmetrically.  I say it was most excellently done.

Nigel