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Author Topic: Greta Gerhardt, flawed character  (Read 2437 times)
mimccart
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« on: January 25, 2011, 04:00:44 PM »

As we come to the end of the series, we essentially have seen everything we're going to see from Chief Engineer Greta Gerhardt.  I propose that she is a flawed character.  Easy there, I'm not commenting on Nate's writing--although many of you might agree with me.  The character is not flawed in its execution (it might be, but that's not this conversation, and Nate can do what he wants with his own product), I mean to say that the character has a character flaw--or ten.   Wink

When we first meet Chief Gerhardt in CS, she is the chief engineer on the Agamemnon--a ship with bad food, bad crew shares, and not much morale.  It is never suggested that she is not a competent engineer (of course, we later learn that she seems to be a superior engineer), yet she hasn't found another berth.  Why? 

She hides behind a little girl facade of posture and voice and doesn't seem display any assertiveness or strength of character you'd expect from the chief engineer.  Then Ishmael provides the environment for her to throw off her sheep's clothing and show her true self.  (A later essay will be entitled "Ishmael Wang, A Catalyst for Better Character.")  This is the end of the meek mouse phase.

When the Agamemnon must find a way to make a delivery date on a priority cargo, Greta is part of the team that comes up with the idea of a close planetary approach.  Now, she apparently has reservations about the stresses this will place on the ship, which is exactly why she was included in the discussion.  What she doesn't do is voice those concerns in that appropriate forum.  I suggest that her silence allows Captain Wang to believe that the risks are not unacceptable and he then accepts the risky course of action.  Later she privately confronts and chastises the Captain for this risky behavior and decision and suggests that he (not the advising officers or just her for not providing him good information to base his decision on) is solely responsible.  (While the captain of a vessel is ultimately accountable, he isn't necessarily responsible for decisions made based on poor information from his crew.)  Appropriately, Captain Wang re-evaluates the situation and decides that the risks are not reasonable and changes the ship's course.

We have just witnessed Greta Gerhardt go from meek little girl engineer to confrontational engineer.  I suggest that her actions began to undermine the confidence Ishmael had in himself and his abilities which has led to the culmination in OS so many have noted.

We don't get to see most of the developing "relationship" that Ishmael and Greta have over the next year.  We are left to infer the amount of platonic quality time they have spent together as officers (perhaps the first seed of which is Ish leering at her getting into the hot tub), but it is made clear that they both develop feelings towards the other.

This culminates at the beginning of Owner's Share. (Apparently the climax comes later.  Oops, sorry, that was bad.)  Ish has been acting in a way that has made Greta uncomfortable and the crew aware of the situation. Ish never gets to the point where he will take action himself.  Instead, Greta confronts him about the situation and places all blame and bad behavior on Ishmael (although she later tacitly admits to her own small culpability, all the while making Ish's own culpability much greater).  Instead of making her own feelings clear to Ishmael and discussing how his own taboos may no longer be appropriate or apply to the situation, she takes the opportunity to admonish him and rebuff his advances.  Again, another blow to the self-confidence so often displayed in the past.  Thus begins the "mind game love interest" phase.

As events unfold with the Iris, Chief Gerhardt consistently sends mixed signals.  She shows interests in his new endeavor--the Jezebel--but harshly characterizes his behavior when he keeps confidential the details of Ms. Maloney's inheritance.  She never attempts to fix the situation between herself and Ishmael before the Agamemnon departs (even though it is clear to every other character, and supported by later events, that she has feelings equal to his) and allows him to believe they parted on bad terms.

With no additional communication between them, Greta eventually resigns(?) her position as Agamemnon's Chief Engineer (and not even in their home port where resources might be readily available) and show's up at the Iris with all her gear, ready to take the place at the side--and in the bed--of the captain and as the ship's chief engineer.  Apparently, there is never any question in her mind that either position might have been filled.  (So, after all the trepidation about Ish and his outdated moires, she just jumps into cohabitation with him.  No "easing into it" or "no separate cabins, but you can have space in my closet."  Not even semblance of taking it slow.  If there was another captain handy, I believe the woman would have forced a marriage ceremony. [Okay, I don't really believe that, but it was too easy not to take advantage of.])  And again, when confronted about her prior actions, she never says she made a mistake, she only rationalizes through pointing out Ish's failings. Ahem, failings as SHE presents them.

So, I present this for debate:  Greta Gerhardt, good engineer but bad news girlfriend.

This ought to fun.  Let the flames begin!
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The Iris can sail circles around the Lois McKendrick and still be back at the Orbital for the afternoon deals at the flea market.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Jamming
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 04:59:36 PM »

No Flames, Greta made mistakes and was as maternalistic about Ishmael as much as he was Paternalistic about her.  She usurped authority over his feelings as much as his clinging to the artificial rule he had set for himself that caused Ishmael to usurp her feelings over him.  Neither side is really at fault here, they were in a situation that was difficult and had no easy answers.  Evidently it was effecting function on the Agamemnon, someone had to break the impasse.  She had the guts to act first, probably completely in a wrong way, but something had to change.
Corrected for Spell-checker Perversity
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:17:00 PM by Jamming » Logged
mimccart
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 05:11:04 PM »

No Flames, Greta made mistakes and was as materialistic about Ishmael as much as he was Paternalistic about her.  She usurped authority over his feelings as much as his clinging to the artificial rule he had set for himself that caused Ishmael to usurp her feelings over him.  Neither side is really at fault here, they were in a situation that was difficult and had no easy answers.  Evidently it was effecting function on the Agamemnon, someone had to break the impasse.  She had the guts to act first, probably completely in a wrong way, but something had to change.
Yeah, okay, but that doesn't leave us much to banter about.

Like my new tag line?
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The Iris can sail circles around the Lois McKendrick and still be back at the Orbital for the afternoon deals at the flea market.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Jamming
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 05:23:23 PM »

Ball One.
Strike One!
Strike Two!
Ball Two.
Ball Three...

I call them as I see them, I can't help if its boring. Roll Eyes

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Tara_Li
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 07:41:35 PM »

No Flames, Greta made mistakes and was as materialistic about Ishmael as much as he was Paternalistic about her.  She usurped authority over his feelings as much as his clinging to the artificial rule he had set for himself that caused Ishmael to usurp her feelings over him.  Neither side is really at fault here, they were in a situation that was difficult and had no easy answers.  Evidently it was effecting function on the Agamemnon, someone had to break the impasse.  She had the guts to act first, probably completely in a wrong way, but something had to change.

I think you meant maternalistic, instead of materialistic - but materialistic might apply, as we really don't see a lot of indication of desire for much more than his body.  Admitted, that's likely in cut material and off-screen development, but still...

However, I have to disagree with your assessment of fault.  The chain of command is there for a *REASON*, and she jumped it completely for personal reasons.

If Ish's actions were affecting the safety of the crew & ship, then she should have talked to Gwen first.  Greta's personal stake in the matter is *EXACTLY* why she should not have been the one to talk to Ish.  As it was, I have to agree with mimccart - she pushed some very destructive buttons.

Admitted, Ish is a civilian ship captain, not a military one - and therefore discipline is not nearly as strict.  But Greta seemed to feel Ish's "Don't screw with crew" motto was completely outdated, and dismissed it as purposeless.  She tossed out the centuries of history behind the philosophy, to play rather sophomoric games straight out of high school.

I will say that as little as I liked her, I certainly never wanted the ultimate denouement we've been presented with.

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nlowell
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 08:32:58 PM »

Actually, Engineering First Officer is a direct report.

She didn't jump the chain.
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Tara_Li
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 09:31:52 PM »

Actually, Engineering First Officer is a direct report.

She didn't jump the chain.

Rather different from the military organization.

However, given her personal involvement, I still think she should have gone through Gwen.  However, your call, Sar, on the org chart.
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JaneAtPlay
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 08:12:52 PM »

Funny.  One of the few things I got 'right' out here, was Greta's motiviation for cutting Ish off at the knees.  As I said elsewhere here, I've eaten a lot of red herrings it seems. 

You make strong arguements, and I'm not looking to change your mind.  Just enjoying the debate. 

I guess I was able to swallow her behaviors and still find a likeable character, if a pushy, strong minded one.  Ish likes strong women.  He was raised by a single mothe.  Alice G., Fredi DeG. were his role models.  Greta *is* flawed.  But consistent.  Ish has been surrounded by flawed characters thoughout the books. (In OS, Christine seems to be the only one that seems 'level', and yet with so many parallels in her life to Ish's and with his POV here..hmmm.)

I can believe she needed her 'protective coloration'.  We never learn how long ago she was raped.  Easy to stay on a ship where she's unchallenged - professionally or personally.  Nice hiding place. 

The sling shot?  She'd been just going through the motions for so long - I can buy getting caught up in the excitement of solving the puzzle.  I gave her credit for setting it right.

Showing up on the Iris?  She's not a 'what if' kind of girl.  More of the 'go for it - and take your lumps, if you're wrong' kind.  Guess I'm just a romantic at heart. 

The speed at which she moved into the ship and the cabin?  Yes, her did come off as a bit of 'fast girl', but this is also Ish's POV and lets face it - the man has never had a romantic relationship with a woman who was in his daily life.  He *has* formed strong emotional bonds with crewmates before - and went to sow his oats on the orbital, in his youth.  They are not kids.  Ish admits this is new territory for him, but I never got the impression he was conflicted about the honesty of his feelings, or hers. Just the circumstances.

Her dismissal of "don't screw with crew"?  She *was* choosing to live by Ish's rules on the Agememnon - in her own misguided way.  On a ship the size of the Lois?  It made a lot of sense.  On the Agememnon, even Ish couldn't find issue with Gwen and Avery's relationship.  I think he began questioning his philosophy back then.  But the Iris was different.  He had admitted his goal is to 'make a life - out there'.  This is his personal ship.  I think the Ellis was the only packet we've seen that was not run by family or a couple - the Bad Penny, the Sarcastic Voice, all the stories of what it meant to be a spacer, on the Lois - were families.  It wasn't that far-fetched to me.

This is the one issue that felts a little inconsistent to me.
[/quote]
She never attempts to fix the situation between herself and Ishmael before the Agamemnon departs (even though it is clear to every other character, and supported by later events, that she has feelings equal to his) and allows him to believe they parted on bad terms. [/quote]

Ish's yearning for connection all but drips off this story - hollow man, and all.  Being abandoned by Greta plays an important role in the story, but its the only part that felt a little like plot convenience to me.  I wrote it off to 'not enough time for her to set it straight'.   Ish was in port for weeks, but the Agamemnon could have pulled out within a day or two of Ish's departure. She does say "yes I lied, and it almost killed me".  She may have kicked herself around the deep dark for months before picking up that new Chief.

Anywway, thanks for something to pick apart that didn't require [article 37] to respond to! 
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mimccart
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 09:06:51 PM »

You make strong arguements, and I'm not looking to change your mind.  Just enjoying the debate. 

Anywway, thanks for something to pick apart that didn't require [article 37] to respond to! 
You make good counterpoints and get the point exactly--fun debate not taken all that seriously. 

The opinions on Greta seemed to be rather polarized leading up to the last few chapters and I couldn't resist putting this essay out there as bait.  I'm actually rather surprised that more people didn't jump vehemently on the other side instead of the more rational discussions that have occurred.  Either I did too good a job with my arguments or I wasn't inflammatory enough.

Uh, I never thought Greta had been raped.  Did you just infer that or is it implied somewhere and I missed it?
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JaneAtPlay
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 11:13:44 PM »

[Uh, I never thought Greta had been raped.  Did you just infer that or is it implied somewhere and I missed it?

It could be *my* interpretation that's reaching.  

In CS, there's a scene after Mr. Pall's accident where Greta asks Ishmael how Mr. Pall is doing.  Ish responds with something about pirates aren't as much fun after you've been raped and pillaged.  She utters something foul and asks what can be done to help Mr. Pall.  Ish responds that she would know better than he would and she gives him a sharp look.  
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 09:02:57 AM by JaneAtPlay » Logged
surfsailor
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 11:35:35 PM »

Aye, it was my impression she had been raped as well.  Or something.  The 'protective coloration' was there for a reason.  I am still curious what that reason is. 
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planish
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2011, 09:55:58 PM »

My problem with considering Greta as a character is that it has been a long time since I listened to "Captain's Share", so her part in the story has lost momentum. I had forgot most of what happened between Ish and her previously. Perhaps it's just me getting feeble-minded in my old *cough57yearscough* age.

Except for that scene in the hot tub.  Shocked That's an indelible minute of mental cinema.
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nlowell
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2011, 09:59:37 PM »

I may need to look at that timing again and spend a little more time with Greta. Somebody suggested that on the other thread and I have to confess that she's VERY fresh in my mind, but that maybe because she's like .. in my mind .. and not on the page, as they say.

It'll have the added benefit of making her pointless death that much crueler and more difficult to accept for the readers.

:/
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Richard
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2011, 11:23:01 PM »

In addition to her "little girl facade of posture and voice" there was also the physical seperation from her father (which I thought was also part of her healing process). So there's plenty of her history to explore.

But nobody dies a pointless death in a novel. That's what real life is for.
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Tara_Li
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 08:52:52 AM »

I may need to look at that timing again and spend a little more time with Greta. Somebody suggested that on the other thread and I have to confess that she's VERY fresh in my mind, but that maybe because she's like .. in my mind .. and not on the page, as they say.

It'll have the added benefit of making her pointless death that much crueler and more difficult to accept for the readers.

:/

I think that's definitely needed.  The scenes I really remember with Greta:

--Discussion of hiding behind her baby voice.
--Discussion of the slingshot around the planet, and her telling him that it should be OK.
--Her later coming back and cutting him off at the knees, asking him if he's pushing so hard because it's his first tour as Captain - pretty much ignoring that *SHE* advised him that it should be OK.  (And it should be ok, other than possibly the connections between the ship and the cargo pods.  It's a free fall trajectory, and we can assume sails and grav keel are going to be shut down.
--Him eying her in the hot tub
--Her again cutting him off at the knees about a relationship - saying that he *HAS* to give her the right to say no, even though he's already saying no to himself.  At this point, I'm figuring there's a fair chance she's a lesbian.  Of course, then we get so many others talking about how she's so stuck on him.  The primary instigators of this, though, are Gwen and Avery, who themselves have just started a relationship and are exhibiting all the signs of "let's hook our unattached friends up so they can be as happy as us!" syndrome.  Such couples are notoriously, for good reason, kind of poor in their selections.  So, who knows?  I never really got the feel that Greta had become Ish's confidant in any serious respect.

Now, we're on the Iris, and again, Ms. Arellone is talking about how Greta was sooo stuck on Ish.  Meanwhile, Ish is noticing how Ms. Malone fills out her shipsuit, and picking up interesting bits about her background - one which is in many ways a better match for him than Greta's, as far as I can tell.  But while Ish is noticing Ms. Malone, he's also getting these flashes of sapphire blue eyes, and remembering how competent Greta was in the engine room (reasonable, as Bailey certainly provides a very contrasting background to see such skills against.)  But again, I'm never getting the impression that his attraction to Greta was more than physical.

So, all of a sudden, Greta shows back up - no real surprise there, the foreshadowing for this even does feel rather sledgehammerish.  She's abandoned her previous post, and dead-headed back to Diurnia, where she knows Ish has his new company centered (Did she dead-head, or did she actually have to pay DST for passage?).  However, she has no *stated* plans - she never actually *says* she came back to see if she could worm her way onto his ship.  My gold-digger alarms are ringing at this point.

Now, as far as I can see, Ish has never had a relationship with a woman that involves any real long-term emotional connection.  Even his marriage was a case of "Oh, this is the woman I look up every time I end up back here to hit the sheets with - maybe I should marry her."  I'm thinking that maybe he's actually started to form such a connection with Ms. Malone, as he knows that once the year is up, she's going to be fair game once more.  This gives him a nice chance to ease the transition, and to get to know her much better before the bed becomes an issue.

With Greta on the ship as Chief Engineer, that's kind of blown out of the water - he's so infatuated with Greta, if she asked him to, I keep getting the feeling he'd gladly beach Ms. Malone, Ms. Arellone, and Mr. Herring in an instant, without any warning, and go back to just running cargo, so they can leave the ship on autopilot and spend their time playing bunk bunnies.

Of course Greta dies - I don't know who expected her to live.  Ish is the more or less tragic hero - always contented, but seldom truly happy.  My annoyance was that it *was* such a trite ending for her.  I was hoping for something more unusual - when she made the comment about using her body to get the position on the ship, and Ish stiffened (not in a good way), I was singing to myself "Halleluja!  He's actually taken the road less travelled by!"  I wanted him to kick her out of the airlock so hard she bounced down to the 015 deck!  But no, she managed to salvage things, by making a joke out of her real ambition (perhaps) of getting the whole company, and not just a position on the ship.

*shrugs* She died.  And while she was on Ish's crew, so of course he's feeling guilty as hell about it.  Naturally he turns away from being a Captain and Owner of the line.  He's an idiot.  And it's only 2 episodes from the end of this story, so there's really no time for Ish to get his feet back under him.

I'm going to blame his cessation of Tai Chi - which occurred, I think, on the Agamemnon - for him losing his center and going so badly off course.  The idiocy with Greta was just a symptom of that.

---

I hope this explanation of how I saw this whole affair helps you decide how you want to adjust things in the final edit for hard copy publication.
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