Greta Gerhardt, flawed character

[surfsailor]

@Tara - You raise some interesting points.  Some of which might lead to a more solid story but I think that it has been we the readers who have put so much emphasis on Greta's character.  Now that we can see the whole story it seems to me that was always meant to be a 'transient' presence.  A means of moving Ish along if you will.

The slingshot bit was less about Greta than about Ishmael.  He needed the wake-up call that he was not making sound choices.  Perhaps if they had received the distress call earlier and altered course because of that instead of Greta's questioning his sanity.  Once they had begun the rescue I imagine Ishmael would have no trouble seeing how close he had been to putting his own ship in as bad or worse situation for the same reason, money.  The self recrimination (that he does have a penchant for) would have served just as well I think.  But!  That little scene in the cabin did show the growing trust between them. 

We must remember that these characters, while imaginary, are meant to be as real as Nathan can make them.  How many perfect people do you know?

I agree that some additional detail might have painted a clearer picture.  I too had the thought that Greta might be gay when she told him she wasn't interested but along side that thought was the idea that she was just making it easier for him to get back to work. 

The idea that Ish might hook up with Christine was to neat for me.  If the Ishmael's story was going to end there perhaps but not if he is to move on and grow more. 

I cheered when Greta showed up on the ship and cried when she was no more.  How often in life do we have all the details to explain a tragedy?  Even knowing the why, where and how, has it ever eased the pain we feel?  Ultimately the little things we feel are missing from the tale are unimportant.  He loved her and she him.  She died, early and horribly before his eyes.  That event or something like was coming, even Ish felt it.  He was getting to comfortable.  An unchallenged man has little reason to change or grow. 

[nlowell]

Tara_Li,

A *very* interesting take.

Thanks.

[Hade]

If it helps, Nate, I'll add that I was thinking many of the same things as Tara while I listened to the story.

To me, there was never any real indication that Ish liked anything about her, except her sapphire eyes, and maybe the way she filled out a bathing suit. With few exceptions, that was the way he tended to talk about her: as a pair of sapphire eyes. The indications that there might be something more to it came mostly from remarks made by other characters.

In the end, I accepted that there must be a *lot* more going on between them than I as a listener had been privy to. I saw no other explanation for the fact that Ishmael suddenly decided to break a rule he'd been religiously adhering to for twenty years. I also saw no other explanation for the fact that Greta gave up her berth on the Agamemnon, apparently fully expecting she'd be able to get onto the Iris, before she'd even spoken to Ish. 

The repeated references to Ms. Maloney's physical attributes didn't help matters either, especially because in the case of Ms. Maloney, we were actually privy to a couple of heart-to-heart moments between her and Ish that might have grown into something more, had they let it.

Of course, what you say about Greta's pointless death is also true: had the connection felt more 'real' to us, it would have been that much more of a blow. But I hardly think that was your reason for writing her the way you did ;-).

[JaneAtPlay]

I think some reference to the gap between CS and OS might have helped demonstrate the bond between Ishmael and Greta.  Some earlier indications that Ish was actually missing Greta's presence would have gone a long way too.    

I thought Ishmael and Greta were developing true affection and mutual professional respect through CS.  Greta certainly had a few flirty moments and Ishmael certainly noticed. The final couple of scenes in CS were like Ish falling through an iced-over pond, realization hitting like cold water (bad analogy maybe, for a hot tub scene? ). We then pick up with OS and Ishmael has been avoiding her for months over his conflicted feeling, but with no suggestion that he's also suffered for the lack of her counsel too.  

At the beginning of OS, I was clear on Greta's feelings.  As the story progressed, I started to questions Ishmael's feelings.  I saw through "but not that way".  I caught everybody's hints and I wasn't surprised that Ishmael didn't.  He still doesn't get that everybody knew Jen had strayed.  But without any clear "missing Greta" on Ishmael's part for most of the story, I was beginning to wonder if Greta was really an infatuation and he was groping for *a* connection, rather than *that* connection (besides a competent Engineer).

Ish seemed to sigh over every woman.  He starts with Kirsten's smile and runs right through wanting to spend time with Christine.  Its not until much later that we start to get that they're nice smiles, but not sapphire studded. Christine offers that Greta spoiled him, but Ish never (even internally) adds that he might have been spoiled by more than her attention to the fuseactors and light bulbs.

Now that we can see the whole story it seems to me that was always meant to be a 'transient' presence.  A means of moving Ish along if you will.

I agree that Greta's death is a life changing event for Ishmael, but I think we were supposed to buy into their 'star crossed love' hook, line and sinker.  This is the real and personal pain that bookends the death of his mother.  I don't think that's achieved if Greta's viewed as a dalliance.

It'll have the added benefit of making her pointless death that much crueler and more difficult to accept for the readers. :/

   
Jeez Nate, you're gonna have to send one of those packs of tissues with every book!  

[nlowell]

Thanks, Jane.

Very interesting take on it.

*I* thought it was blindingly obvious...hmm.

[ratz]

I may need to look at that timing again and spend a little more time with Greta. Somebody suggested that on the other thread and I have to confess that she's VERY fresh in my mind, but that maybe because she's like .. in my mind .. and not on the page, as they say.

It'll have the added benefit of making her pointless death that much crueler and more difficult to accept for the readers.

:/

I think that's definitely needed.  The scenes I really remember with Greta:

--Discussion of hiding behind her baby voice.
--Discussion of the slingshot around the planet, and her telling him that it should be OK.
--Her later coming back and cutting him off at the knees, asking him if he's pushing so hard because it's his first tour as Captain - pretty much ignoring that *SHE* advised him that it should be OK.  (And it should be ok, other than possibly the connections between the ship and the cargo pods.  It's a free fall trajectory, and we can assume sails and grav keel are going to be shut down.
--Him eying her in the hot tub
--Her again cutting him off at the knees about a relationship - saying that he *HAS* to give her the right to say no, even though he's already saying no to himself.  At this point, I'm figuring there's a fair chance she's a lesbian.  Of course, then we get so many others talking about how she's so stuck on him.  The primary instigators of this, though, are Gwen and Avery, who themselves have just started a relationship and are exhibiting all the signs of "let's hook our unattached friends up so they can be as happy as us!" syndrome.  Such couples are notoriously, for good reason, kind of poor in their selections.  So, who knows?  I never really got the feel that Greta had become Ish's confidant in any serious respect.

<snip>

*shrugs* She died.  And while she was on Ish's crew, so of course he's feeling guilty as hell about it.  Naturally he turns away from being a Captain and Owner of the line.  He's an idiot.  And it's only 2 episodes from the end of this story, so there's really no time for Ish to get his feet back under him.

I'm going to blame his cessation of Tai Chi - which occurred, I think, on the Agamemnon - for him losing his center and going so badly off course.  The idiocy with Greta was just a symptom of that.

---

I hope this explanation of how I saw this whole affair helps you decide how you want to adjust things in the final edit for hard copy publication.

Yeah that about sums up where I was left on the character too. I just went back and mainlined Captain's share; and I can see that if I had went bang bang from CS to OS back to back that it might have worked better for. But the other characters are so much better developed.  

I find myself wondering how the tale flows if Greta had comes aboard as engineer from the start because she's hired as the caretaker; and Ish sort of gets stuck with her when he buys the ship; cause she's there and convenient..... and Baliey as just a crew member/bodyguard. Then maybe I buy Ish walking away from his life at the end. I'm not a huge "Lost" fan, but on that show they had to kill Charlie, cause killing a log carrying person has no impact. Greta feels like a log carrying extra, not a main character.

I've read all that Nathan's posted and I see where he's going and why he went there; I respect the hell out of rolling a grenade into a well crafted universe.....

Where I get left is, yes Ish didn't really choose the course of his life; it's been choosing him for a long time. BUT that's true for a awful lot of people in the world. As a reader/listeners, we bring our perspectives to our interpretation. The best stories have applicability to life.  My life is not one I would have chosen at 18 years old; if I had to do it again I would likely choose a different course, but it would take a very very very major event to make me *chuck* it and start again. A lot of people I know feel the same; it's a rare person that picks their path and hits it, but most people are great a staying on the path.  So I personally bring that to the events at the end of the Novel, and I wind up with serious cognitive dissidence.  

When it all goes down; I just can't buy into Greta's importance; my brain goes oh *BS*; he's running away cause things got a little hard; grow up already. If they don't bury you; you will bury someone else. If Life was easy they'd have a word other than "Life" for it.... Now  *IF* Ish and Greta had planned out the next 10 years of a life and it was centered on the Iris and the business I could see chucking it, but that' not what happened. In the face of all this as it occurred I'd expect Ish to knuckle down and fight to succeed at the business at hand. Sell the stupid ship and buy another if he has to have too, Extra ordinary people tend to go with the momentum in their life, they focus it and defeat most obstacles even it it take a couple tries. Don't tell me Ish isn't extra ordinary; he's not a superhero but for these stories he been extra ordinary in a way that we can all see ourselves being extra ordinary on our best days, and that's why we care about him. I didn't see enough to be sold on that Ish would be beaten and broken. Perhaps this is a combination of us audience members projecting ourselves into Ish's shoes, and part of the Author knows his characters better because they are bouncing around in his cranium all day long. After all Greta whispers in Nathan's ears throughout the writing process, but not in our ears.

In a alternate reality world I was musing over.......

Someone else mentioned the Maloney scene's throughout the voyage; and I also felt that there were more heartfelt moments with that character; and that relationship and a mutual respect was building there. I was half hoping for the story to go that way; with that relationship bridging the age gap *Gasp* yeah that happens all the time, and it would be in keeping with Ish's character throughout the share series although the ages would be inverted.

I found the concept quite reasonable, that we could have Ish and Maloney winding up as the spacer partners that go separate ways for years at a time with no issues in the relationship. We've seen that back on the Lois and there is no reason to believe there isn't a lot of that because of the reality of the deep dark...You have in Maloney a strong confident woman; whose about to break out of her shell and grab the life she wanted that of a Chef etc (she will achieve soon what Ish is failing to do) and the back story epilogue-ish post elsewhere in the forum tells me that is about right....

It would have made a lot of sense for a relationship to grow there and for Christine to learn of Ish's backstory and eventually give him the Shove out the door (or airlock) and tell him to go off and do what he needs to do; and to call when he needs a ride and the Iris would come get him.

In these forums there were a number of listeners who where saying Ish deserved better...well.... ok what we deserve.....do we ever get that.? well ....... fate is fickle...but in stories sometimes we do; but it comes sideways.... but if you chase that belief:  Then it is congruent with the share universe that Ish helps Maloney find / get her dream, they wind up together; maybe because Stacey gets killed instead of Greta and the shock makes they overcome the barriers. If Ish get's Stacey killed because he ignored her all throughout the story; it's much more powerful, much more sole shaking, much greater guilt, much greater sense of self loathing, if Stacey has to sacrifice herself willingly because see couldn't get Ish to believe her then dam that's a gut punch. Would the character of Stacey do it? Yeah I think so, based on the way Nate built her I think she would.... In the end Maloney is strong and confident; she has the intellect to rival Ish, she can easily give him the kick in the ass and the fiscal freedom to got forth into other stories as both he and Nate need to... She's a more believable lever to spring Ish free than than Greta as "we the audience" know her. and If a rich and empowered Ish doesn't work for the stories Nate wants to tell; then she's also enough of a lever to say "You aren't ready to be here.... leave, come back when you are."



Anyhow as an Author I hope that Nate is immensely gratified that he's built a bunch of imaginary characters that we debate and discuss motives for and against as though they were real people in our lives.

[nlowell]

I really like both those scenarios, ratz. I don't see how either of them provides the break needed to move Ishmael up to the next level, but I like them both.

[ratz]

I really like both those scenarios, ratz. I don't see how either of them provides the break needed to move Ishmael up to the next level, but I like them both.

Ah dear author you are the sole person with an inclining of what that next level is....  and I was only reflecting ideas you painted inside my eyelids.  

I think what is clear here is that a minority of us here needed to know Greta the way you seem to in your head. Perhaps Stacey needs to get frustrated with Ish and go off on him about how blind he is to Greta's ploy, tell him how bad he messed up the chief back on the Agamemnon. Or you could have Maloney pick at that scab, prior to Greta returning, your started that thread with the "we didn't think you'd need a chief line." but maybe that was too subtle for us thick headed listeners. I think she's sufficient character to say to Ish, tell me about Greta, tell me why you are doing this alone... You could probably get away with a fade to black on that scene with one of your now famous, inverted phrases like "over that cup of coffee some deeper understanding of the captain was forged, some of it hers"... A little story telling there let's Ish ruminate a bit in his head and maybe start recovering on his own, then in full gear when he gets the chief back a week later...when it comes to relationship introspection we the audience sometimes need a spanner to the forehead.  That spanner can be in the form of so little Text....  There is still the flaws in the Greta bossiness... maybe Ish needs to ask her back more than she seems to push her way back in, if Ish is partially better from talking with Maloney he might have been able to go get what he needed in equal manner to Greta pushing her way back in. I think some of the lady's might like Greta better. If Ish starts to feel he lost a whole year with her before the attack and how stupid he was.... Then the attack is gonna kick harder...

After that I personally wished you could bring onto stage more  Christine negotiating the buy out of Ish and her plans that you laid out here in the forums.. You have some awesome background structure laid out, but I think we can all see that it's hard to get that into a first person narrative.. Why do that? Because Christine is by far your best female character to date and your most subtle. (saving maybe Alice Z). Show how much more in tune with ownership Christine is and in her we can see a final reflection of how over his head Ish is in Owner's share business affairs and how much Geoff really did know his daughter.  If fate is good to Ish he may cross paths with her again so finish rounding her out for us by sharing what you have already decided. Ish might even run away from conflicted feelings between Christine, that he starts the notice in recovering,and the now dead Greta ....that would make a lot of men run from guilt alone, and gives a reason for Ish's earlier observing of Christine in a ship suit.  We all know people keep waiting for Alvarez to show up again, and having Christine out there gives you another tease for the future to annoy us all with...

Ok I wil stop now, I am stepping too hard, on the stories I have come to find refuge in.  



In the meantime therapy with the author has worked well, how many months til the next story?...