ARTICLE 37 FREE ZONE - WARNING ENTER HERE ONLY AFTER LISTENING TO EPI 30

[Laith]

Ishmael has a lot of potential...So far we haven't really done more than touch the surface.

Very true, and unless my math is off Ish is only in his early 40s at the end of OS. That is despite the lines between him and his crew describing him as 'Old'

Remember the conversation back in the early books (FS I think) about old spacers and how Francis wasn't even middle age... and I believe at that time he was about Ish's age at the end of OS.

Given how long people can live in the Golden Age, Ish has many many more stanyers left to live.

[Richard]

Things I did pick up on, and my feeble attempt to critique:

Ep 27 - It was the perfect ending for a stand-alone book about characters we'll never see published again.

Ep 28 - Nobody told Ish that Greta was dead, and he didn't ask about her. That goes against human nature. After being unconcious, and seeing 1/2 his crew, he should want to know about the other 1/2. It's so normal that I believe we needed to hear it too. Not hearing it left me hoping that she wasn't dead right up until Ish walked into his cabin. Starting with the interview with the TIC agent, Ish acted like he already knew Greta was dead, but again, missed an opportunity to act normal and ask about Greta.

Walking into his cabin & seeing Greta's stuff gone should have been either a relief or a hammer blow. Judging by his reaction to the smell of his sheets, it was the hammer. If Ish had been shocked to see Greta's stuff gone, the numbness that followed would have been more believable. "Angry & Cheated" are ok, but don't contribute to numb like shock does.

[nlowell]

Things I did pick up on, and my feeble attempt to critique:

Ep 27 - It was the perfect ending for a stand-alone book about characters we'll never see published again.

Exactly right. Those who *really* think that shoulda been the end of the book, probably need to realize that it would have also been the end of Ishmael Wang for me.

Ep 28 - Nobody told Ish that Greta was dead, and he didn't ask about her. That goes against human nature. After being unconcious, and seeing 1/2 his crew, he should want to know about the other 1/2. It's so normal that I believe we needed to hear it too. Not hearing it left me hoping that she wasn't dead right up until Ish walked into his cabin. Starting with the interview with the TIC agent, Ish acted like he already knew Greta was dead, but again, missed an opportunity to act normal and ask about Greta.

Walking into his cabin & seeing Greta's stuff gone should have been either a relief or a hammer blow. Judging by his reaction to the smell of his sheets, it was the hammer. If Ish had been shocked to see Greta's stuff gone, the numbness that followed would have been more believable. "Angry & Cheated" are ok, but don't contribute to numb like shock does.

I'm gonna have to disagree here, Richard. It wasn't sloppy writing. He knows she's dead when his head bounced in the blood on the deck. There is no way he's ready to talk about it. There is NOTHING in any of the stuff that follows that would make him doubt the evidence of his own eyes. With all the angst, hate, and discontent here over killing greta, you can't even begin to say it's a question. I'm not buying it.  You can say that you - the audience - needed to hear it and that's fine. Ishmael didn't.

[junkfoodmonkey]

I can't believe it's the end of the series. I've burned through all the episodes of Owner's Share in only a few days (I didn't realise it's been coming out since December, I was distracted.) I swore I was going to take my time with them, but you know how that works out.   I'll have another slower listen soon. And of the others too. I haven't yet listened to Captain's Share a zillion times like I have with the others. I need to fix that. I think aside from 7th Son which I listened to twice, these are the only Podiobooks I've listened to several times. Sometimes I just put a random episode on for the soothing tones of Ish/Nathan.

It made me gasp when Ish gave away the dolphin whelkie and I thought yes, that's the end, at least of this phase of his life. The series ends because the dolphin has done its work with Ish and is moving on to someone else. Almost like the series was centered around the dolphin and Ish was the guy who it needed to be with for twenty years.

I swore - out loud - at the bit about Ish getting the auction money after 120 days, when the loan was due in 90. Nice! Then when the buyer defaulted, I swore again.  I love it when a book can give me that kind of reaction, because I really care about what's going on.

I never suspected Simpson of being the villain, but as time went on I started thinking this guy is a lot more ruthless than he first appeared and was nervous for Ish in his dealings with him.

Ms Arellone had to be my favourite character in this. Love her eXtreme Bodyguard stuff.

Thanks again for a wonderful series I know I'll be listening to - and reading - for years to come.

[ratz]

(I can't believe we're arguing over paper profits in a fictional company for a guy whom I made up and who has so much bigger fish to fry than the incremental profit over more money than he knows what to do with already, but hey...)

LOL I just had a flash of Ish the revenge killer.... LOL sorry but I did

[Sean]

I'm not sure that I see Ish as having failed, or having been quite so 'pushed about.'

Certainly, he had choices and didnt' always seem to make the right ones.  His choices stretched back to signing on - he could have allowed himself to be deported.  Instead, he found an option and took it.  He could have continued with Cookie, but he took the multiple tests to broaden his options and when the oportunity (that he made) came to join the environmental section came up - he grabbed it.  As was stated frequently, he liked being in the Deep Dark.

In OS, he could conceivably have accepted that DST was beaching him and walked.  I'm betting with Captains papers and a good track record, he could have found another position.  Or, he could have balked and tried to stay with DST instead of taking on the new ship. 

Perhaps it was 'just what he was expected to do,' but my listening seemed to give me the impression that when he was presented with choices he made the best one given what he knew at the moment.

Even the $1.5 million cred 'skim' his apparently trusted financial advisor took was a pretty transparent set-up by a financial shark - Ish still came out ahead, keeping his ship and company - with basically NO real investment of his own funds.  Zero down startup of a starship company?  Hmm.  Doesn't sound like a failure to me.

The piece that doesn't ring true in retrospect is HOW DEEP his relationship with Greta became in such a short time.  Not to be callous, but they were only together a limited period after she had turfed him out.  And she was really pushing against his fundamental belief that 'you don't 'do' with crew.'  Ish seemed to be a pretty astute judge of people for the most part, why was he so blind to Greata in the first place, then so deeply committeed after?  Maybe it's because I retired from the CG a year back, but there are really, really valid reasons you don't mess around with the help.   

This bugs me all the more so after having Half Share so strongly establish the theme.

Or, perhaps (cynical me!) you are establishing background for the next set?

I don't want to nit-pick too much yet; I'm going back through and listening to all six books at the moment and want to see the full story arc again first.  But...  Don't rewrite, Nate.  Tweak, maybe, and hopefully the folks commenting here will be able to help you with a little Brasso.

[ratz]

Actually I think the comments -- while sometimes frustrating -- offer me an insight into the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of my writing. I'm shocked, for example, at how readily everybody jumped on Jarvis as the villain even in the face of what I thought was obvious problems with that idea. Also the notion that Ishmael's drop off in effectiveness was - somehow - something I had done by accident, that it was sloppy writing or something -- I obviously didn't make that plain enough and I'm going to take that under advisement.

I try to reward careful listeners. The stories -- as your glimpse into my world should show -- are not simple surface stories but have roots that run "off stage" and around in places that are significant only by implication. That's never been truer than in this book. One of the risks of taking this kind of chance is that you don't do it well enough. I'll stand by the story. Of the almost 6000 people who've listened to the ending since Monday, only a small handful have commented one way or another and the vast majority of the comments have been positive.

You guys here on the forum are the hardcore group ... I love you guys.

I don't often agree with you, but I salute your willingness to try to second guess me.

Dam these threads always get rocking when I'm swamped with other things I must do....  

I'll sum up the things I haven't been able comment on prior.

1) The story's great don't change the plot.
2) I've always appreciated the attention to details in the prior stories and the balance in them. This story felt front loaded on details and rushed in the end.
3) The author is always right.
4) Greta had to die, and Percival had to kill her; but there was no shock value in either one. I just didn't care about either character.
5) I has paid my monies and I gots a good ride I shouldn't be complaining.....  

I the end, I was satisfied but disappointed at the end of OS. It's wasn't the story the bugged me; most everything in the big reveal I had figured out except for Simpson; it all hung together great and logically. It took forever to piece together and multiple re-listens.  Simpson was a great Ah HA! dam now I need to listen to the entire story again.  But the attack scene did not give me an OMG reaction; I was more ok here we go Percival and the Chief kill Greta, I thought long and hard about publicly guessing that before the release, but then I just hinted at it in the other thread.  I want to be surprised and I wanted to be shocked. I wasn't. However, I did love the Slow motion Flashes of realization the execution of the scene itself were great. This is not a ha ha I'm smart and figured it out post, this the dam it you almost completely had me, and I want to be completely had because that makes the story go from very good to great....

So were I'm left wondering is did you want us to LIVE Ish's view of the events or did you want use to be told about them by him. I think that's important part of it. If we are living his life then we are going to be far more ignorant of the moment than we would be if he's recounting the story years later. I think that's where a lot of others were struggling with the story this time; I just went with it as the LIVE view that we are as ignorant as Ish is... Mostly I'm curious which way you were thinking it was...I'm guessing LIVE as self-awareness of the welkies and the like aren't in the story...

Now....

If I could have back my ignorance of the story; I'd want to see more scenes of Ish interacting with Percival; I wanted to be a ignorant of him as I was of Simpson; If he's a pro he should have lulled the audience into ignoring him the same as Simpson did. Especially if you are going to name him Red Herring, then really lull us good... I've said before the Iris is a tiny ship with a tiny crew, no one is insignificant. I don't want to know things that would tip me off that Percival is the weapon; there already enough of that; more camouflage would be great. Maybe just his orientation night standing watch scene with just him and Ish would do it. We know Ish says Percival reminds him of himself when he was young, if you could take us on the little journey it would be huge ..... I know it must have been there; it's just all offstage, Get him to be someone we are starting to really like because he's dam good at his job (the hired killer in disguise job)..... I always hate it when the weapon revealed is act 2 is obvious; I love it when the author was totally obvious and totally made me miss it.

Example had Ms Areonlle turned out to be the killer and had Percivial stopped/disabled the Chief in the act would have been interesting too. If She was the weapon that would have been shocking, and it almost hangs together on all the details of the story...  Get me close to that level of shock with Percival if you can.... ok well at least 1/4 to 1/2 the way there.... Having the chief have a change of heart seeing Percival going for the kill, and trying to stop the killing of Christine and getting himself and Greta killed as a side effect might have worked too; but hey those are just execution details. What's there works; if I get lead into liking Percival then the impact is insanely high....

With Greta, I was well aware of the position in the story we were at when she reappears. We know the end is coming and there be all these hints from the author that we are going to knock over the chess board soon; so maybe we all had too much inside info. A few more scenes on the flight to the court appearance where Greta is working with the crew, fixing all the chief's blunders, having her explain the lower power computers that had to be replaced etc, during this time have the Old Ish reappear because of her in glimpses. Put a Greta, Percival, Ish scene in.

We know all this happens in retrospect; but it's offstage again; and that makes Greta feel 2D; I needed to have her character rebuilt up again to not suspect that she was going to be the prop that got killed. I wanted to be as crushed at her Death as Ish was. but that didn't happen ....

...

Ok I'm out of time right now; I didn't want to rush the post but, I can flesh it out more but it doesn't matter the point's there. Great story, Great execution, The author is always right; I'm glad Ish is out of the Cycle he was trapped in. I don't mind the killing of a major character as a plot point, I just wanted to be a as blind sided as I was on Simpson and you were oh so very close to doing that.....

[JaneAtPlay]

In OS, he could conceivably have accepted that DST was beaching him and walked.  I'm betting with Captains papers and a good track record, he could have found another position.  Or, he could have balked and tried to stay with DST instead of taking on the new ship. 

I think you're right on point here, it's Ishmael's first wrong turn.  After finishing and mulling over OS, seems he made the same mistake that Gwen and the rest pointed about his marriage. "Going Indie" was what he's supposed to do next.  Neither worked out so well

quote author=Sean link=topic=211.msg2655#msg2655 date=1296261411]
The piece that doesn't ring true in retrospect is HOW DEEP his relationship with Greta became in such a short time.[/quote]

Seems a lot of people had that issue.  I bought into it more and didn't buy Greta's brush-off as anything more than putting in out of his misery, but I still wasn't sure if it was 'the real thing' for Ishmael or if he was just trasferring some more vague need for connection.  In OS, he seems to sigh over every woman with a nice laugh!  It was much later in the story (I think) that he began missing Greta in specific, as opposed to "Woman" in general.  He did spend about a year on the Agemmemnon and seemed taken with Greta immediately, though.

There's another topic out there about Greta where I had a fun "point/counterpoint" with another poster, if you need more Greta overload

[JaneAtPlay]

Hey Nate, I keep meaning to ask....

What's with Ishmael and the temperature on the docks?  

Through all the books, he seems a little obsessed about the cold.  He mentions it almost every time he leaves the lock. Asks other people if they're cold.  Offers his jacket.  Is surprised when people aren't cold.
  
Was he that kid who had to wear a sweater all the time because Mom was always cold?  

[Richard]

I'm gonna have to disagree here, Richard. It wasn't sloppy writing. He knows she's dead when his head bounced in the blood on the deck. There is no way he's ready to talk about it. There is NOTHING in any of the stuff that follows that would make him doubt the evidence of his own eyes. With all the angst, hate, and discontent here over killing greta, you can't even begin to say it's a question. I'm not buying it.  You can say that you - the audience - needed to hear it and that's fine. Ishmael didn't.

@NLowell - No, you are not a sloppy writer. The worst I can say about you is that your style is different than mine. (Big Fat Hairy Deal.) So I listened to the attack again after reading your comments. I heard that at the end, Ish said that everyone except Christine was injured. Since he didn't say Greta was dead, I dragged that thin thread of hope with me until confronted with Ish's cleaned out cabin. That hurt. I would've preferred to have that thread snipped before it got so long.

[Sean]

Hey, Nate,

Thinking of Brasso got me wondering.  You pay a great deal of attention to color, taste, temperature, smell...  How come no Brasso-analog on a solar clipper?  I haven't used any in decades but just a whiff of a similar smell and I'm back on training cruise polishing away...
 

[nlowell]

Brasso .. heh .. yeah .. just the name. I can smell it.

They don't use it because the alloys don't need polishing and the outgassing would interfere with the chemical balances in the air.

But yah. That's a memory for me too

[chess]

Okay, so just after posting my "how much did Ish get from the Cherynakova auction" in the "Questions we'd like answered" thread I find this thread and see Nate's response that it still hasn't happened.  :-)

Anyway, this is a very, very interesting thread.  Thanks, Nate, for the comments and additional detail into the plot.  I agree that to move on with Ishmael, the Share series had to end the way it did.  Otherwise, it would just be a series of stories going from port to port, looking at the cargo list, and meeting interesting passengers.  I would imagine that, as an author, the challenge of telling new Ishmael stories, where he has found a new life, to be very exciting.

It's funny about the comments on some of the other sites about how the story should have ended at Chapter 27 -- it reminds me of when I read the last book in Stephen King's Dark Tower series where just before the final climactic chapters, King inserts a note to the reader at a particularly important point and suggests that if the reader wants the ending they are anticipating, they should stop there.  The hero, Roland, has been successful in battle and is about to embark on the final leg of his long quest.  The reader could imagine Roland achieving his lifelong dream and finding the answers to all the questions he has been asking.  Those who read on, however, as I did, where treated to a very different ending that many found frustrating or depressing or unsatisfying.  Wow, the brou-ha-ha over that!  I felt that way at first, too, but after reflection I realized that King's ending was the ONLY possible ending to the whole series.  It's not exactly the same as with OS, but it does remind me of the whole Dark Tower situation.

I also find myself thinking about the scene in Chapter 30, where Ishmael is thinking about Tai Chi, and imaging himself viewed through a video camera, one that pans out past the bulkheads and into space, where he imagines himself on a tongue of a large metal whale (nice reference to Moby Dick, perhaps?) -- I don't know if this was intentional, Nate, but that scene really grabbed me as a metaphor for where Ish finds himself in Chapter 30.  It hints that the Tai Chi, the thing that grounds him, that gives him that "lifeline" has been buried beneath the responsibilities of captainship and ownership.

Anyway, this post is rambling and probably not making much sense.  ;-)  It's been an awesome series, Nate.  It has been a long, long, long time since I have found myself so invested in a fictional character and thoroughly enjoyed the hours of entertainment you provided.  Thank you, sar.

[mimccart]

Nate,

Since you are being so generous and forthcoming with answers and information, I want to know something VERY important.  Something that has frustrated me about OS to the point of exhaustion--well, okay, not that far.  I just really want to know:

WHY CAN'T ISHMAEL MANAGE TO FIND A QUALITY TAILOR ON ANY PLANET IN THE QUADRANT?

Give the guy a nice suit, for cryin' out loud!  Especially now that he doesn't have a uniform.

[nlowell]

Re: Tailor ...

Easy.

He has been too busy to look.