Capt. Giggone: Saint or Sinner

[Tara_Li]

It recently occurred to me that perhaps I missed something that was implied in the earlier books.

With the end of Owner's Share, we see an Ishmael we haven't seen before - one in over his head, unhappy, and lost.  He's destined for bigger and better things - or at least different things - than ewe've seen so far.  What those might be, I'm not sure - he's going to have to work his way up a new career path, or at least define something new, and so he's gone back to Port Newmarr to study Tai Chi and regain his centering.

But - is Port Newmarr the place he should be going?  Why did he end up at Port Newmarr in the first place?

Well, frankly, he was there because he was pushed to be there.  Nobody really listened to his concerns on why he would go to Port Newmarr.  Instead, when the time came, he was presented with an already-filled out application that he simply needed to sign.  Capt. Giggone was convinced that he was going to the Academy, and so he was going to the Academy.  I wonder how much longer he would have been aboard the Lois McKendrick if he'd very politely thanked her, and said "no thanks."

Not very long, I suspect.  Capt. Giggone seemed to be a bit infected with the up or out syndrome that our current military has - if you don't take a promotion when it's offered, you won't be offered another promotion.  I'm pretty sure that Capt. Giggone is well enough respected that if she beached someone, and put out the word that he just wasn't suitable for ship-board life, the beached person would be sitting on an Orbital until any possible contract ran out, and then not allowed to sign up for a new hitch.

And note that all of the external recommendations, not from members of the Lois crew, were from women - women who, like Capt. Giggone, seem to know what's best for him - which is The Academy.  You can almost see the gaggle of grey-haired grannies gathered together to discuss how this dear boy needed some guidance.  Ok, so not all of the women were grey-haired grannies.  IIRC, one was an officer he slept with - which to my mind, means she should have had the dignity to not give her recommendation.

I'm wondering what might have happened to Ishmael, had he not been pushed into the Academy at such an early point.  We're given to understand that the majority of spacers come from a spacer background, with its shared culture; a culture we see tripping up Ishmael a few times.  How much did Ishmael miss at Port Newmarr, simply because he didn't really share this culture with them?  He had trouble finishing the shuttle qualifications - but was this at least in part because he didn't grow up around them, occasionally being taken out in joy rides and getting to watch Mom or Dad drive?

Would Ishmael have, if he'd finished out his contract on the Lois, come to the conclusion that once he reached the full set of ratings, that the challenge just wasn't there, and decided that maybe life in a can wasn't as wonderful as he'd thought?  That life on an Orbital, where you can get to know someone, and develop a life together, would be better?  Perhaps he'd have extended his contract for a couple of more years, possibly moved on to another ship and gotten a taste of life there, broadening his contact, and leading him to realize that sure, a life mucking out sludge and eventually starting some limited shipboard hydroponics would be fun.

I don't know - maybe I'm all wet here.  But over and over, we see people telling Ishmael that he's destined for bigger things.  Cookie says he could become an excellent cook, but that he'd get bored, so he needed to explore other lines of work.  Likewise, he's told that environmental just isn't a good enough life for him.  Soon enough, around a year and a half after he's first had ANY experience with the spacer lifestyle, he's being hustled off to become an Officer (yeah, that's the sound of organs and a choir you hear in the background, praising God and his Officers On High).

Was Capt. Giggone too concerned with getting another successful officer through Port Newmarr under her belt, or was she really doing what she felt was best for Ishmael, and blind to the possibility that he really wasn't ready for the Academy yet?

[mimccart]

First and foremost, let's not forget the Prime Directive of the Trader's Diary Forums:  It's fiction, the author was telling a story, and these people aren't real.  Okay, now we can get back to our delusional treatment of the characters as if they were historical characters.  :-)

Yes, Ish is easily influenced by the females in his life.  However, if given a critical examination, it will be found that most males are overly influenced by the females in their lives--but often the females don't have the male's best interests in mind.  So be it.

Ish never has an idea what he wants to do in life.  He says he planned to go to college and study something in the biological arena, as I recall, but doesn't have a vocation in mind.  Like many young people, I think signing the Articles is like joining the military.  It's an opportunity for growing up and getting exposed to things so that you can get a better idea of what you want--or don't want--to do with your life.  Like many people from non-military families, Ish finds that he enjoys the life and is good at it and decides to make a career of it.  Not uncommon in today's military, either.  In the end, when he no longer is enjoying the life, he leaves it behind, with that story left to be told in the future.

I think it is less common for people to really know what they want to do and then end up doing it than the alternatives.  I personally wanted to be a pilot, but that was not a viable option at the time, so I went to college to study engineering, another love of mine.  Poor professors spoiled engineering for me and I drifted without direction until I decided to study psychology.  With the heart of a scientist/engineer, the degree of a liberal arts major, and without desire for grad school, I got a job in sales and support of industrial equipment. 

I liked computers and when a opportunity arose to get an entry level job in a relatively unknown field called "networking" came up, I took it.  I had a mini-career in silicon valley designing, selling, implementing, and supporting computer networks.  I not only was good at it, but I loved it.  Then that ended.

When looking for a new job/career, I re-kindled my interest in aviation and this time pursued it.  I trained to be a professional pilot and flight instructor and have had a small career doing that, too.  The realities of working for the airlines has kept me from going that direction (the one I thought I wanted in the beginning), but I still love flying and I'm very good at it.  Now I'm considering getting back into networking again. 

What's my point?  One, most of the life/career turning points in my life were unplanned and unexpected.  There were very few things that happened by design.  Often you just go with what works and try to not be unhappy.  (Happiness always seems to be there in retrospect.)  Two, having is not always the same as wanting.  My desired career ain't all it's cracked up to be.  I might love doing it, but it may not be a good vocation.

Too serious?

If Capt. Giggone is a plot device, she either provided motivation and opportunities so that Ish could have options and stability or she is the prime mover in a bigger story and the next series of books will be about Galactic Empress Giggone and Ish will be one of her navy's officers?  (BTW--there is a new book out in Kindle format by Nathan set in this universe and it doesn't seem to be about Capt. Giggone, so I may have got that wrong.)  We'll have to see what happens.

[GeekDavid]

The better question to ask is, would Ish have been any happier being just a crewman, being, as Brill asked him once, slopping sludge when he was 50?

The answer to that one will provide a large part of the answer to the original poster's question.

[Tara_Li]

The better question to ask is, would Ish have been any happier being just a crewman, being, as Brill asked him once, slopping sludge when he was 50?

The answer to that one will provide a large part of the answer to the original poster's question.

Who knows?  He barely surveyed the available positions.  He always seemed happiest when he was lining up new cargos on the slide into the orbital, and when he was hunting for private trading goods.  And he hardly seemed unhappy in environmental.

He definitely did seem, in both of his major relationships, to be doing them because it was the expected thing.  I think he was much better off on a bigger ship - Lois or Tinker scale, not Agamemnon - Agamemnon was a happy time for him for being able to snipe good contracts.

At least he didn't have to experience the infatuation with Greta going sour.

[mark_CPJCOSB]

Hi,
some ramblings as my first post:

#1: While I agree that Captain Giggone doesn't search for new cadets just out of the goodness of her heart (the prestige alone is an ulterior motive; and it it mentioned at least once that she would feel more pressure to teach at the academy without that shtick), I don't think that she would actively torpedo the careers of her (ex-)crew members who choose another path.

#2: Generally speaking I think that Giggone isn't as awe inspiring, as she was for young Ish:
the whole "your ass is mine" speech for land rat quarter shares just doesn't sit well with me. Even more so since it is well established that the union halls screen non-spacers quite thoroughly. She had to know that both Ish and Sarah thought that the berth on the Lois was their last hope, and they were classified as "good people" by the union hall managers. No pressing need to "scare" them into submission/on the straight and narrow. Especially in Sarah's case it struck me as almost cruel, and far from good leadership.

And she seems to be rather aloof and cloistered in her cabin. A far cry from Captain Rossett to be sure, but not really all that involved with the crew. Granted, the Lois isn't a Fast Packet where the Captain cooks breakfast, but a crew of 33 isn't a terribly big crew either. At least by the standards of present-day navies.

#3: I never understood the "you have time, but don't waste it; go to Port Newmar NOW!" scare (well, I kind of understand if out-of-character: the next book was "Double Share," so Ish had to be an officer by then). For starters we talk about a universe where people routinely live 140 years and people with careers work past 100.

And: all the other cadets from the Lois (Pip, Bev, Brill) were both older and had spend more time "seasoning" as ratings. That double standard always bothered me.

#4: I don't see Ish as a rating "for life." I think Sandy Belterson was right: enlisted are "labor" and it is a "dead end job."
And Ish is just too learning and career orientated, he had his "full set" and his fist Spec/1 rating in the first two years. He could have worked to become Spec/1 in every specialty  , but I don't think that is a realistic option.
But: two years or so of insight into the more indie or family side of spacer life would've been very valuable for a land rat like Ish (and I think even Captain Giggone would've seen the wisdom of that).

Just imagine Ish taking Penny's offer to find him a berth for his "very marketable skill set" and spending two additional years as a rating on board of a family run Fast Packet before going to Port Newmar.
A berth where his wide cross training is actually used, valued, and further encouraged.
Remember how Ish grows under von Ickles, a Third Mate with just three years under his belt? Imagine Ish after a Captain and a Chief take him directly under their wings for two years: not awe inspiring figures in the cabin, but people who hold a spatula or change scrubber cartridges too.

Not to mention that he would most likely experience an alternative to the "don't screw with crew vs bunk bunny culture" he so mightily struggles with.

[Tara_Li]

Hi, some ramblings as my first post:

#1: While I agree that Captain Giggone doesn't search for new cadets just out of the goodness of her heart (the prestige alone is an ulterior motive; and it it mentioned at least once that she would feel more pressure to teach at the academy without that shtick), I don't think that she would actively torpedo the careers of her (ex-)crew members who choose another path.

I tend to agree - I don't think she would torpedo someone who didn't do what she wanted - but I can't say it would be completely out of character.  There is a reason Kipling said "the female is more deadly than the male."  I think she put the needs of the Merchant Marine service first, and didn't really consider very well what Ishmael's needs were, and whether he would be more effective with more seasoning.

#2: Generally speaking I think that Giggone isn't as awe inspiring, as she was for young Ish:
the whole "your ass is mine" speech for land rat quarter shares just doesn't sit well with me. Even more so since it is well established that the union halls screen non-spacers quite thoroughly. She had to know that both Ish and Sarah thought that the berth on the Lois was their last hope, and they were classified as "good people" by the union hall managers. No pressing need to "scare" them into submission/on the straight and narrow. Especially in Sarah's case it struck me as almost cruel, and far from good leadership.

To be fair, the "scare them straight" approach is classical, and probably pretty much mechanical for Capt. Giggone.  And it's classical because it's very effective, working on a large majority of the population.  It likely arises from our pack/troup evolutionary history.  However, it's the ones it doesn't work on who are the most critical - they're either going to be your brightest stars, or your biggest headaches.  I was the latter for a trio of Drill Sergeants during Basic Training at Ft. Benning for the National Guard.

And she seems to be rather aloof and cloistered in her cabin. A far cry from Captain Rossett to be sure, but not really all that involved with the crew. Granted, the Lois isn't a Fast Packet where the Captain cooks breakfast, but a crew of 33 isn't a terribly big crew either. At least by the standards of present-day navies.

I agree, but again, this is classic separation of the Enlisted and Officers that is held strongly still in our military.  Truthfully, Ish didn't do so well on this, and I'm glad for him.

#3: I never understood the "you have time, but don't waste it; go to Port Newmar NOW!" scare (well, I kind of understand if out-of-character: the next book was "Double Share," so Ish had to be an officer by then). For starters we talk about a universe where people routinely live 140 years and people with careers work past 100.

And: all the other cadets from the Lois (Pip, Bev, Brill) were both older and had spend more time "seasoning" as ratings. That double standard always bothered me.

They also never went for the all four ratings thing.  Pip actually had issues he had to resolve in himself before he was ready - though to be fair, his father rushing to meet him gave me the impression that Pip came by these issues fairly.  However, Bev & Brill going for the Academy at that time was either mostly coincidence, or just something they got inspired to do seeing Pip & Ish heading out.

#4: I don't see Ish as a rating "for life." I think Sandy Belterson was right: enlisted are "labor" and it is a "dead end job."
And Ish is just too learning and career orientated, he had his "full set" and his fist Spec/1 rating in the first two years. He could have worked to become Spec/1 in every specialty  , but I don't think that is a realistic option.
But: two years or so of insight into the more indie or family side of spacer life would've been very valuable for a land rat like Ish (and I think even Captain Giggone would've seen the wisdom of that).

Sandy may be right - but not everyone is really that interested in going on to a leadership position, even if they're otherwise qualified for it.  Becoming Spec/1 in every specialty would have been well within his grasp, and might well have been something he really enjoyed.  I'll agree that he was learning oriented - I'm not so sure he was career oriented.

I think, though, that for the most part, Ish integrated so well, that most people simply forgot that he wasn't spacer-born.  This lead them to assume he knew a lot of things he didn't - such as Ish's constant discovery that things were available on his tablet, like the map of the ship.  We don't generally use GPS for navigating our way through a building - we look for signs and a building directory posted somewhere prominently.

Just imagine Ish taking Penny's offer to find him a berth for his "very marketable skill set" and spending two additional years as a rating on board of a family run Fast Packet before going to Port Newmar.
A berth where his wide cross training is actually used, valued, and further encouraged.
Remember how Ish grows under von Ickles, a Third Mate with just three years under his belt? Imagine Ish after a Captain and a Chief take him directly under their wings for two years: not awe inspiring figures in the cabin, but people who hold a spatula or change scrubber cartridges too.

Not to mention that he would most likely experience an alternative to the "don't screw with crew vs bunk bunny culture" he so mightily struggles with.

Indeed - Ish would have developed rapidly as an apprentice on the Bad Penny.  And I think ultimately, that style of ship command - a small crew of people he knows very well, and can trust fully - would be the best place for him, if he eventually did want to go into command.

Still, he got to where he is now, though at least three women had to die for it.  We'll see where it goes from here.